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S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:03 pm

Lumphammer wrote:I have a rotisserie but I won't be using it to do the sills. At the moment my car is on axle stands which are these fairly standard ones from toolstation:

https://www.toolstation.com/axle-stand/p83498

They get the car high enough on their own to do the arches and you can get under there with enough room to do all maintinence. I hapilly got the gearbox out and in of the blue car / removed literally everything at this height. I just measured the silver car and the bottom lip of the sill is currently 380mm from the floor, there might be 2 notches left in the axle stands too. These axle stands look very similar to the one's you're currently using.

When i do my sills i'll jack it up a bit more and sit the axle stands on a couple of dense concrete blocks or bricks which will give about 8" more lift and make welding / grinding a bit less awkward. If you're supporting the car on the reinforcement areas each end of the frame rails there's a lot less stress on the middle body and sills which will hopefully reduce flex when large parts of the sills are removed.

I've seen some people do the sills with the car on a rotisserie but it needs to be totally stripped to reduce weight and even then the one's i've seen brace up the car as it's prone to flexing a lot more when it's supported from the ends of the chassis like it is on most rotisseries.

I'm keeping mine rolling until I have to strip everything to paint the underbody (which is my choice not a necessity). Keeping it rolling lets me have it in a position in the garage where I've got more space and when i come to do the other side i can drive it out, turn it round etc. If you can keep it mostly intact you'll avoid the misery of filling your whole garage and some of the house with car parts, it's incredible how much "stuff" there is in even a small car like an MX5.

For welding I have a Clarke 110EN Turbo, which is a very basic gas MIG and it's doing alright. New I think they're about ÂŁ250 now but I saw one come up secondhand a few days ago for ÂŁ100 - you don't need any more power until you get above 2mm metal thickness which there isn't in an MX5. So far I've been using pure CO2 and in all honesty it's been working alright. It's good you have a garage, welding outside is utterly miserable and even the slightest wind will make your welds cr*p. I think MIG is fairly easy to learn, I had no experience of doing thin metal other than fixing a cement mixer drum

Those wire wheels on the grinder can be lethal :-D


All very good points,

I do have plenty of concrete (breeze) blocks that I could use to save a few pounds, and gain a few inches :wink: will have a go at the weekend.

My mx is fully stripped excluding the engine and I have stacks in the attic and roof of the garage, brokers how much space stuff takes up!!

I do have a welder I bought it new last year, its a Clarke 180 mig, so 180amp which I fear even on the lowest may be a bit to powerful but was recommended to me! I've got 0.6 and 0.8 wire, I'll prob go 0.6 until I get confident or stick with it, not sure, and I'm running pure argon.. I did use it to repair my rusty ride on mower deck, luckily I have a grinder lol!! (It is juddering on the wire feed at the mo so need to sort that)
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby Mazda Mender » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:36 am

"(It is juddering on the wire feed at the mo so need to sort that)"
Where is it stored? if stored where moister is about ,then the wire can go furry and stick/catch, but it just could be down to how you have set the feed gripper, or the reel to tight?.
My 150 turbo is fine down at low for body panels , the 180 should be fine bud, plus everyone is a great welder with a flappy disc on a grinder :-D
M-m
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Mk 1 Eunos 93 black V.S II 1.8 ,
Mk 2 .1/4 Roadster 99 black & gold V.S 1.8 .
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MK 2.1/4 Blue V.S Roadster 1.8 99 ..
MK1 1.8 ,white import.. (Ashleighs)
MK1 1.6 yellow J ltd import.f/build
MK 1 1.8 black Tokyo Ltd..f/build


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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:59 am

Thanks M-M,

I think the wire fed is down to set up, its done it ever since it was new, i have tweaked the feed gripper and i cannot seem to get it right, i will have a play over the weekend, ill swap the wire over to the 0.6 and see how i get on with a practice, i have a sheet of 0.8 steel in the garage i can have a play with.

I'm going to fire up the gringer and start taking some cuts to try and get a feel of how bad things may be, i think ill invest in a borescope as well, to have a good look down the sills, etc.. im very much in two minds what to do! i have accepted im going to have a go, i haven't lost anything to start cutting away areas so may as well have a look, i personally think this will lead to be progressing with the work, BUT to what extent! i'm a bit of a sod for perfection (whether i can achieve it or not(the not builds frustration)!) so the 2 minds are 1) just repair what is necessary! 2) its all necessary so replace the full sill, lower inner arch, outer floor edge and also chassis rails! some seem a little unnecessary due to them not really being structural or not rusty, etc, but they just look crap! and if i'm doing, had i may as well just do it all to satisfy my need for everything to be and look right! which will be difficult seeing as though this is the first time i have ever attempted something like this!!

Lets hope this weekend i manage to get through it without injury! :roll:

Hopefully i will have some exploratory photos to post over the weekend rather than just loads of whittling text! :-D
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby blackyb » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:23 pm

Sounds like you have a plan and the determination to get on and do it and that's going to be the secret to your success, I agree with option 2, if your going to do it and want it right, do it.

As for your welder shuddering, mine has two groves in the drive wheel one for .6 the other .8 but it's an old girl, couldn't even tell you what make of model she is.
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:42 pm

blackyb wrote:Sounds like you have a plan and the determination to get on and do it and that's going to be the secret to your success, I agree with option 2, if your going to do it and want it right, do it.

As for your welder shuddering, mine has two groves in the drive wheel one for .6 the other .8 but it's an old girl, couldn't even tell you what make of model she is.


Thanks BB, i do have determination, and patience, i just hope i can add the other elements that i need to make this a success!! luckily there are quite a few videos on line to help with some guidance! :roll:

I will correct myself, my welder is a Sealey Supermig 180A (probably identical to the Clarke) , having had a look at the manual online it looks as though my roller is also grooved, i wonder if i have it in the wrong one! i will check that out, with changing the wire i will go through the full set up and see if i've missed something..

I have been watching the new Richard Hammond show where he is setting up (joining forces) a classic car restoration business, and they were welding up a door skin on a mini, and as a weld was put down it was blasted with air to cool it rapidly and stop to much heat getting in to the panel to avoid distortion? is this a good idea? or is it case you never really get that much heat with in reality tack welding and you would balance your welding
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby Mazda Mender » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:18 pm

Tack weld body panels and move around...don't concerntrate the welds in one section for to long
M-m
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Mk 1 Eunos 93 black V.S II 1.8 ,
Mk 2 .1/4 Roadster 99 black & gold V.S 1.8 .
Mk 1 Eunos 90 1.6 soul red ..f/ build
MK 2.1/4 Blue V.S Roadster 1.8 99 ..
MK1 1.8 ,white import.. (Ashleighs)
MK1 1.6 yellow J ltd import.f/build
MK 1 1.8 black Tokyo Ltd..f/build


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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby drumtochty » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:39 pm

The Sealey 180 is specified for body shops and garages, it goes down to 30 amps welding output, therefore no problem with thin car bodywork welding as long as you get back to clean metal to weld too!

Play about with a power setting of 1 or 2 and a wire speed of say 4 to 6 and find a happy medium between not burning through the metal and getting full penetration of the weld metal. I will take you a while to get that right.

The Sealey is a traditional design of Mig Welder and is transformer based therefore not as efficient as the latest inductor designs but there is some question of the long-term reliability of the inductor units. A similar inductor welder would pull 16 amps from the mains at 180 welding amps, the Sealey would pull nearer 20 amps from the mains at 180 welder amps. The drawback of the transformer units is the 45kg weight while the Inductor units are around 15kg weight for the same rating.

As Wayne has advised many little welds that in the end join up rather than doing one long bead, as you do not want too much local heat in any one area. A friend as you said keeps his compressor running and as soon as he has done a few tacks, he picks up the air cannon to cool down the heat affected zone.

At car bodywork welding power levels you will probably be pulling say 7 amps from the mains as opposed to welding 6mm plate when you will pull 20 amps from the mains.

If you are using an electrical extension to get to specific areas on the bodywork make sure the extension is fully unwound.

Have fun!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNEivD ... LIg/videos

Talking about YOUTUBE take a look at the above MX5 videos here re reducing weld stress to the bodywork at Yorkshire Car Restoration and subscribe to be advised when the rest of the rusty MX5 videos are uploaded on to their Chanell.

Final point, the roller on the wire feed on most MIG welders is set up so that if you are using 0.6 mm wire you need to see the 0.8 mm marking on the roller and when using 0.8mm wire you need to see the 0.6mm marking on the roller as the grove you want on the roller is at the back of the roller.
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:16 pm

Thanks Drumtochty, some great and very useful information, much appreciated.
The video is useful, i actually went to Yorkshire Car Restoration for a quote to have the Mrs's J-LTD welded up, but it was too expensive due to the amount that needed doing, they are not that far from me so would have been ideal! but now its a DIY job (but now appears i am practicing on mine first!!!!!!)

A bit of on update! so with me looking to DIY the J-LTD i had bought new sills, sill end plates and arches for that, which i will now use on mine! today i have purchased from MX5 Restorer (who also have some great videos on rust repair) the floor to sill plates and the chassis rails!!

Saturday - was a bit of a none starter for me, all i managed to do what get the car on 4 axle stands, but only as high as i dared with my jack! it was so precarious! but ideally i need to get it higher when i start the underside. i have removed the front bumper and the wings so i could get access to everything i needed to..

Sunday was a FULL day of cutting the car to bits on the drivers side, carefully because i had no idea what was underneath and what i may cut through (you will see a few marks where i went too deep, but will weld them up and dress back!!!! the more i did the more and more and more i found!! WOW if anyone ever says to me, great car has no rust i will NEVER believe them!! i first started with the wire wheel to remove some paint from the rear sill and lower arch, as i did this it very quickly became apparent that i was not just removing paint i was removing a load of filler!! so it has had the lower rear outer sill, it had, had a plate welded in and then filled, they even put a fake seem in where the arch meets the sill, the metal repair underneath was not good but the filling and paint on top was spot on, hid everything very well!! i am now assuming that the passenger side will be the same!! so this is now looking like proper major surgery!!

Any way on to the photos

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I realised after i had done the rear arch and sill that i had bought some spot weld drills, i used these on the sills and they were bloody brilliant!
Last edited by graymattor on Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:21 pm

Not sure why my photos get rotated like they do! they look ok when i upload!

Some more

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Whats peoples thought on weldable primer? obviously i will be welding things in that i cannot get access to once welded, i have the galvanising spray, which is weldable, but not sure if i would be better with a proper primer rather than the galvanising spray? once an item is welded in would you over spray the primer and then with a cavity sealer before closing up?

Thanks
Last edited by graymattor on Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:25 pm

My main concerns at the moment are

1) making a panel that you cannot buy! the round end of the floor! i am hoping by buying the floor to sill pieces that this will give me a starting to point where i can cut it so i can bend it up, etc
2) the rigidity of the car, when i cut the full cill off, and the floor to cill out, is it going to keep its rigidity?
3) Welding new panels in that meet old ones, do i overlap or butt up? i have bought a pneumatic panel flanger/punch

4) ME DOING ALL THIS lol!!!

The more hints and tips the better so keep them coming
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby Lumphammer » Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:57 pm

Good work!

The round end of the floor isn't as bad as it seems, i had the same dilemma - the critical surfaces are the flange to the lower lip and sill end plate, the joining piece where the floor to sill joins the body and the upright piece. The "cup" itself isn't that critical so long as it looks alright. To make the cup i imagine i'll start with a rectangle of steel and cut something like 2" x 2" of the corner out so the edges can be curved down the match the original, tack to the new correctly bent flange and then fill in the corner cup with a piece bent and then with reliefs to allow the dome to be bent in, trim the overlapping pieces until it buts up correctly, tack, adjust with the round hammer, tack some more etc. You can mock it up with cardboard reasonably well too. I'll be using thicker steel like 1.2mm - 1.5mm for this part

I chose to put some simple bracing on mine but it might be OK without. The mx5 restorer (lights-up, lights-down on YouTube) who IMO document a very high standard of work don't seem to use bracing in their videos which suggests to me that it isn't necessary - but it's your car so if you think it is needed then use some

Personally I don't like the idea of overlapping pieces where there's lots of potential moisture like the sills but i've got no experience, i just look at my rust and it's mostly around the lap pieces
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby drumtochty » Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:51 pm

You can get into the hidden areas if you drill holes in different places to gain access. In saying that you can put a wand in there and blow in cavity wax. You in a lot of cases cannot grind in there to remove rust. The weld through primer does it's best to protect the panels.

Now Bilthamber Dynax 50 cavity wax which is a typical preparation to protect these difficult to get to areas has additives that are claimed to attack rust that it finds and in the case of a butt weld there will be unseen back of butt areas that Dynax 50 or other similar products will protect.

I have talked to the guys at the MX5Restorer and they agree that this specific area is always a "Trust Me I'm a Doctor" sort of thing but they advise that weld through primmer followed by Dynax 50 has stood the test of time for them as they have used this process for 7 years without issues.
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:32 pm

Thanks Lumphammer..

I've bought an extra length of the floor to sill so I can utilise the lip then slit down the lip so I can bend the floor section up un place to produce the curve, then I guess panel the outer edge, not sure yet, it's 1.5mm thick so nice and thick! Will definitely try a cardboard template, I guess that will be the last job with not really being structural..

That's a fair point all rust is around lap joints, so I guess butt the panels up and let the weld penetrate.

I'm a little nervous with removing so much material and I am a little worried about flex so may see if we have and carbon pipe or angle at work to knock something up to be safe, I like your stiffeners (I do have a roll bar fitted but no door bars yet which would help, possibly an excuse to buy some lol)

What brand weldable primer are you using
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Mon Jan 31, 2022 10:37 pm

drumtochty wrote:You can get into the hidden areas if you drill holes in different places to gain access. In saying that you can put a wand in there and blow in cavity wax. You in a lot of cases cannot grind in there to remove rust. The weld through primer does it's best to protect the panels.

Now Bilthamber Dynax 50 cavity wax which is a typical preparation to protect these difficult to get to areas has additives that are claimed to attack rust that it finds and in the case of a butt weld there will be unseen back of butt areas that Dynax 50 or other similar products will protect.

I have talked to the guys at the MX5Restorer and they agree that this specific area is always a "Trust Me I'm a Doctor" sort of thing but they advise that weld through primmer followed by Dynax 50 has stood the test of time for them as they have used this process for 7 years without issues.


Great info again drumtochty, sounds like a plan :handgestures-thumbup:
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Re: S-Ltd - "The Black Lemon"

Postby graymattor » Mon Jan 31, 2022 11:16 pm

I asked The MX5 Restorer a question yesterday, to which they replied today.

My plan before this was to fit the Skidnation chassis rails, I bought a set a few years ago in preparation. So with my not going down the route of replacing the factory chassis rails I asked if their replacement chassis rails were the same width as the factory ones so I could fit the skidnation bolt on chassis rails, to which they replied, firstly theirs are larger than the factory, they are designed to go over the top of the ends of the factory rails so the skidnation ones won't fit, they also said if I bought their 3mm thick versions and welded them in place they would be a lot more stiffer than fitting a bolted version (good point) they also went on to say they do floor plates that fit under their chassis rails for extra strength, so I've decided to go for the plates and 3mm chassis rails, while I'm doing I may as well do and fit the best I can to give the car the new lease of life I want it to have and foe me to enjoy (HOPEFULLY!!!!) but wow looking after these little cars is expensive!

So today I bought the below

https://themx5restorer.co.uk/shop/new-mx5-parts/new-mx5-panels/floor-rail-reinforcement-spreader-plates-mk1-mk2-mk2-5/
No idea how to fit them I have asked for a guide if the have one! Just had a read again and it sounds like they weld inside the car? I'm really not sure! They the do, do I drill through and weld the floor pan and these plates to the new rails? Unfortunately I don't think there is a video of these..

https://themx5restorer.co.uk/shop/new-mx5-parts/new-mx5-panels/mk1-mx5-floor-rail-chassis-rail/

https://themx5restorer.co.uk/shop/new-mx5-parts/new-mx5-panels/floor-to-sill-panel-mk1-mk2-mk2-5/
3 of these to do the full length of the floor both sides, replacing jacking points (any tips on replacing jacking points would be great?) Again there doesn't appear to be a video or guide on fitting these, but hopefully not to difficult! Scared to death of cutting this lot out and the car falling in half :???:
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